{"id":1159,"date":"2013-08-11T07:00:56","date_gmt":"2013-08-11T11:00:56","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/?p=1159"},"modified":"2013-08-12T10:03:12","modified_gmt":"2013-08-12T14:03:12","slug":"government-surveillance-insulting-our-intelligence","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/government-surveillance-insulting-our-intelligence\/","title":{"rendered":"<span class=\"caps\">NSA<\/span> Surveillance: Insulting Our Intelligence?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><\/p><div id=\"attachment_1170\" style=\"width: 310px\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\"><a href=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/08\/credit-rotten-tomatoes.jpg\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-1170\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-1170 \" alt=\"Michael Corleone warned his brother-in-law not to insult his intelligence.  Does the government insult ours when it defends its snooping activities?  [Credit: Rotten Tomatoes]\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/08\/credit-rotten-tomatoes.jpg?resize=300%2C169\" width=\"300\" height=\"169\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/08\/credit-rotten-tomatoes.jpg?resize=300%2C169&amp;ssl=1 300w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2013\/08\/credit-rotten-tomatoes.jpg?w=360&amp;ssl=1 360w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\"><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-1170\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Michael Cor\u00adleone warned his broth\u00ader-in-law not to insult his intel\u00adli\u00adgence. Does the gov\u00adern\u00adment insult ours when it defends its snoop\u00ading activ\u00adi\u00adties? [Cred\u00adit: Rot\u00adten Tomatoes]<\/p><\/div>\u201cImprop\u00ader pay\u00adments\u201d by the fed\u00ader\u00adal gov\u00adern\u00adment totaled an esti\u00admat\u00aded $115.3 bil\u00adlion in 2011, accord\u00ading to a report pre\u00adpared by the Office of Man\u00adage\u00adment and Bud\u00adget (<span class=\"caps\">OMB<\/span>), but the <a title=\"Link to GAO report\" href=\"http:\/\/gao.gov\/assets\/590\/589681.pdf\" target=\"_blank\">government\u2019s own watch\u00addog agency<\/a> doesn\u2019t believe those esti\u00admates.&nbsp; The Gov\u00adern\u00adment Account\u00adabil\u00adi\u00adty Office (<span class=\"caps\">GAO<\/span>), which exam\u00adined the <span class=\"caps\">OMB<\/span> analy\u00adsis, thinks the num\u00adber of mis\u00adspent fed\u00ader\u00adal dol\u00adlars is much higher.<!--more-->\n<p><span class=\"dquo\">\u201c<\/span>The fed\u00ader\u00adal gov\u00adern\u00adment con\u00adtin\u00adues to face chal\u00adlenges in deter\u00admin\u00ading the full extent of improp\u00ader pay\u00adments,\u201d <span class=\"caps\">GAO<\/span> found. \u201cSome agen\u00adcies have not report\u00aded esti\u00admates for all risk-sus\u00adcep\u00adti\u00adble pro\u00adgrams, while oth\u00ader agen\u00adcies\u2019 esti\u00adma\u00adtion method\u00adolo\u00adgies were found to be not sta\u00adtis\u00adti\u00adcal\u00adly&nbsp;valid.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The $115 bil\u00adlion fig\u00adure, though enor\u00admous \u2014 government\u2019s \u201cimprop\u00ader pay\u00adments\u201d are <a title=\"Link to Federal Times review of agency budgets\" href=\"http:\/\/www.federaltimes.com\/article\/20130410\/AGENCY01\/304100010\/The-2014-budget-request-agency-by-agency\" target=\"_blank\">larg\u00ader than the bud\u00adget of every fed\u00ader\u00adal agency<\/a> except the Defense Depart\u00adment \u2014&nbsp; is pho\u00adny. Some agen\u00adcies haven\u2019t both\u00adered to esti\u00admate \u201cimprop\u00ader pay\u00adments\u201d asso\u00adci\u00adat\u00aded with \u201crisk-sus\u00adcep\u00adti\u00adble pro\u00adgrams\u201d they over\u00adsee, while oth\u00aders have pro\u00adduced esti\u00admates based on faulty methodologies.<\/p>\n<p>When it comes to waste\u00adful spend\u00ading, the gov\u00adern\u00adment doesn\u2019t know what it doesn\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Which is why its col\u00adlec\u00adtion of enor\u00admous amounts of data about us is so trou\u00adbling. If gov\u00adern\u00adment can\u2019t accu\u00adrate\u00adly guess how much mon\u00adey it has inap\u00adpro\u00adpri\u00adate\u00adly spent, how can it know that the infor\u00adma\u00adtion it has gath\u00adered isn\u2019t being inap\u00adpro\u00adpri\u00adate\u00adly&nbsp;used?<\/p>\n<p>In a hear\u00ading last month before the Sen\u00adate Judi\u00adcia\u00adry Com\u00admit\u00adtee, wit\u00adness\u00ades from the Jus\u00adtice Depart\u00adment and gov\u00adern\u00adment intel\u00adli\u00adgence agen\u00adcies defend\u00aded new\u00adly-dis\u00adclosed pro\u00adgrams that involve the col\u00adlec\u00adtion of mas\u00adsive amounts of infor\u00adma\u00adtion about <span class=\"caps\">US<\/span> cit\u00adi\u00adzens. The Administration\u2019s lines are by now famil\u00adiar: all 3 branch\u00ades of gov\u00adern\u00adment approved the pro\u00adgrams, they keep us safe, and the agen\u00adcies have estab\u00adlished pro\u00adce\u00addures to pre\u00advent&nbsp;abuse.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve writ\u00adten about the first two lines of defense else\u00adwhere (<a title=\"Link to DBC on technical truth-telling\" href=\"http:\/\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/presidents-reality-tv-and-technical-truth-telling\/#more-655\" target=\"_blank\">here<\/a> and <a title=\"Link to DBC post on limits of government power\" href=\"http:\/\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/can-you-hear-me-now-the-limits-of-government-power\/\" target=\"_blank\">here<\/a>). In essence, the Fourth Amend\u00adment guar\u00adan\u00adtees the right of all cit\u00adi\u00adzens to be \u201csecure in their per\u00adsons, hous\u00ades, papers, and effects.\u201d&nbsp; To seize my records, the gov\u00adern\u00adment must show \u201cprob\u00ada\u00adble cause\u201d that I have been involved in a crime and must obtain a war\u00adrant that specif\u00adi\u00adcal\u00adly names me and what they think I\u2019m hid\u00ading.&nbsp; No court has con\u00adsti\u00adtu\u00adtion\u00adal author\u00adi\u00adty to order that everyone\u2019s records be sur\u00adren\u00addered to the gov\u00adern\u00adment, nor can Con\u00adgress con\u00adsti\u00adtu\u00adtion\u00adal\u00adly enact leg\u00adis\u00adla\u00adtion that grants a court such sweep\u00ading pow\u00ader. The Pres\u00adi\u00addent and the exec\u00adu\u00adtive branch agen\u00adcies that report to him also lack that legal author\u00adi\u00adty, regard\u00adless of how high-mind\u00aded their objectives.<\/p>\n<p>You may or may not agree. It hard\u00adly mat\u00adters. The gov\u00adern\u00adment is col\u00adlect\u00ading this data any\u00adway. What are they doing with it?&nbsp; Noth\u00ading but good things, if you read agency testimony.<\/p>\n<p>Deputy Attor\u00adney Gen\u00ader\u00adal <a title=\"Link to Cole testimony\" href=\"http:\/\/www.judiciary.senate.gov\/hearings\/testimony.cfm?id=0d93f03188977d0d41065d3fa041decd&amp;wit_id=0d93f03188977d0d41065d3fa041decd-0-2\" target=\"_blank\">James Cole<\/a>&nbsp;told the com\u00admit\u00adtee&nbsp;that the order grant\u00aded by the secret&nbsp;For\u00adeign Intel\u00adli\u00adgence Sur\u00adveil\u00adlance Court (<span class=\"caps\">FISC<\/span>) nar\u00adrow\u00adly cir\u00adcum\u00adscribes what the gov\u00adern\u00adment can do with the infor\u00adma\u00adtion it col\u00adlects about&nbsp;you.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><span class=\"dquo\">\u201c<\/span>The [<span class=\"caps\">FISC<\/span>] order also impos\u00ades numer\u00adous oth\u00ader restric\u00adtions on <span class=\"caps\">NSA<\/span> to ensure that only prop\u00ader\u00adly trained ana\u00adlysts may access the data, and that they can only access it when the rea\u00adson\u00adable, artic\u00adu\u00adla\u00adble sus\u00adpi\u00adcion pred\u00adi\u00adcate has been met and doc\u00adu\u00adment\u00aded. The doc\u00adu\u00admen\u00adta\u00adtion of the analyst\u2019s jus\u00adti\u00adfi\u00adca\u00adtion is impor\u00adtant so that it can be reviewed by super\u00advi\u00adsors before the search and audit\u00aded after\u00adwards to ensure compliance.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><a title=\"Link to Inglis testimony\" href=\"http:\/\/www.judiciary.senate.gov\/hearings\/testimony.cfm?id=0d93f03188977d0d41065d3fa041decd&amp;wit_id=0d93f03188977d0d41065d3fa041decd-0-3\" target=\"_blank\">John Inglis<\/a> of the <span class=\"caps\">NSA<\/span> made a sim\u00adi\u00adlar&nbsp;point.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><span class=\"dquo\">\u201c<\/span>Under rules approved by the court, only 22 peo\u00adple at <span class=\"caps\">NSA<\/span> are allowed to approve the selec\u00adtors used to ini\u00adti\u00adate a search in this data base; all queries are audit\u00aded; only sev\u00aden posi\u00adtions at <span class=\"caps\">NSA<\/span> (a total of 11 peo\u00adple) are autho\u00adrized to release query results that are believed to be asso\u00adci\u00adat\u00aded with per\u00adsons in the&nbsp;<span class=\"caps\">US<\/span>.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>The government\u2019s wit\u00adness\u00ades are argu\u00ading that if you don\u2019t trust them, you should trust the <span class=\"caps\">FISC<\/span>. Its orders allow only a hand\u00adful of \u201cprop\u00ader\u00adly trained ana\u00adlysts\u201d access to our data and requires \u201caudits\u201d of every query. Not to&nbsp;worry.<\/p>\n<p>About those \u201cprop\u00ader\u00adly trained ana\u00adlysts.\u201d How is it that a 29-year-old high school dropout with the resume of a meth deal\u00ader not only gained the clear\u00adances nec\u00ades\u00adsary to access secret infor\u00adma\u00adtion but also made a mock\u00adery of the pro\u00adce\u00addur\u00adal restric\u00adtions on which the gov\u00adern\u00adment asks us to&nbsp;rely?<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dquo\">\u201c<\/span>The actions of one con\u00adtrac\u00adtor should not tar\u00adnish all the con\u00adtrac\u00adtors because they do great work for our nation,\u201d Inglis said in his pre\u00adpared statement.<\/p>\n<p>Inglis is being eva\u00adsive. To my knowl\u00adedge, no one has alleged that \u201call the con\u00adtrac\u00adtors\u201d are as untrust\u00adwor\u00adthy as James Snow\u00adden. Nor has any\u00adone&nbsp;said that all agency employ\u00adees with clear\u00adances are unscrupulous.<\/p>\n<p>In sug\u00adgest\u00ading that no one but Snow\u00adden has made inap\u00adpro\u00adpri\u00adate use of our data, it is Inglis who is mak\u00ading the unsup\u00adport\u00adable claim. The claim is sim\u00adi\u00adlar to <span class=\"caps\">OMB<\/span>\u2019s esti\u00admate that the gov\u00adern\u00adment made \u201conly\u201d $115 bil\u00adlion in improp\u00ader pay\u00adments in 2011. Just as the gov\u00adern\u00adment doesn\u2019t real\u00adly know how much mon\u00adey it is wast\u00ading, the <span class=\"caps\">NSA<\/span> and its sis\u00adter agen\u00adcies don\u2019t know who is doing what with its mas\u00adsive data&nbsp;trove.<\/p>\n<p>The Pres\u00adi\u00addent, too, has asked us to trust that agency poli\u00adcies ren\u00adder abuse of our data impos\u00adsi\u00adble. \u201cWhat you\u2019re hear\u00ading about is the prospect that these could be abused,\u201d he said dur\u00ading his <a title=\"Link to press conference transcript\" href=\"http:\/\/www.whitehouse.gov\/the-press-office\/2013\/08\/09\/remarks-president-press-conference\" target=\"_blank\">Fri\u00adday press con\u00adfer\u00adence <\/a>in which he announced an ini\u00adtia\u00adtive designed to boost pub\u00adlic trust in gov\u00adern\u00adment snoop\u00ading activ\u00adi\u00adties. \u201cNow, part of the rea\u00adson they\u2019re not abused is because these checks are in place, and those abus\u00ades would be against the law and would be against the orders of the&nbsp;<span class=\"caps\">FISC<\/span>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The Pres\u00adi\u00addent and his team cite court orders and agency pro\u00adce\u00addur\u00adal man\u00adu\u00adals, but peo\u00adple like James Snow\u00adden aren\u2019t deterred by those orders and pro\u00adce\u00addures. They know they\u2019re vio\u00adlat\u00ading agency pol\u00adi\u00adcy when they act. They know how to cir\u00adcum\u00advent restric\u00adtions. And they know how to get away with it with\u00adout their boss\u00ades catch\u00ading on.&nbsp; Snow\u00adden is not unique.<\/p>\n<p>James Clap\u00adper, Direc\u00adtor of Nation\u00adal Intel\u00adli\u00adgence, repeat\u00aded the offi\u00adcial line in his recent <a title=\"Link to Clapper letter to Wyden\" href=\"http:\/\/www.wyden.senate.gov\/download\/?id=285dc9e7-195a-4467-b0fe-caa857fc4e0d \" target=\"_blank\">let\u00adter<\/a> to Sen\u00ada\u00adtor Ron Wyden (D\u2011<span class=\"caps\">OR<\/span>). Acknowl\u00adedg\u00ading that \u201cthere have been a num\u00adber of com\u00adpli\u00adance prob\u00adlems\u201d with agency pro\u00adce\u00addures, he flat\u00adly assert\u00aded that \u201cthere have been no find\u00adings of any inten\u00adtion\u00adal or bad-faith vio\u00adla\u00adtions.\u201d Mis\u00adtakes were made, Clap\u00adper acknowl\u00adedged, but those mis\u00adtakes were invari\u00adably due to \u201chuman error or high\u00adly sophis\u00adti\u00adcat\u00aded tech\u00adnol\u00ado\u00adgy issues.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Tech\u00adnol\u00ado\u00adgy is com\u00adpli\u00adcat\u00aded. Peo\u00adple make mis\u00adtakes. But no one ever has (and, pre\u00adsum\u00adably, ever will) delib\u00ader\u00adate\u00adly vio\u00adlate agency pro\u00adce\u00addures to improp\u00ader\u00adly access or use the&nbsp;data.<\/p>\n<p>Dr. Clap\u00adper is either a very na\u00efve man or, as Michael Cor\u00adleone might say, he \u201c<a title=\"Link to Godfather quote\" href=\"http:\/\/www.imdb.com\/title\/tt0068646\/quotes\" target=\"_blank\">insults our intel\u00adli\u00adgence<\/a>.\u201d&nbsp; Nei\u00adther he nor his col\u00adleagues caught on to&nbsp;what James Snow\u00adden was up to until after he\u2019d giv\u00aden&nbsp;secret infor\u00adma\u00adtion to news\u00adpa\u00adper reporters. He vio\u00adlat\u00aded agency pro\u00adce\u00addures and got away with&nbsp;it.<\/p>\n<p>They still may not just how much infor\u00adma\u00adtion he stole. On the morn\u00ading of the hear\u00ading, the <a title=\"Link to Guardian article\" href=\"http:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2013\/jul\/31\/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data\" target=\"_blank\">Guardian<\/a> pub\u00adlished yet anoth\u00ader arti\u00adcle about yet anoth\u00ader hereto\u00adfore secret pro\u00adgram called XKeyScore which \u201callows ana\u00adlysts to search with no pri\u00ador autho\u00adriza\u00adtion through vast data\u00adbas\u00ades con\u00adtain\u00ading emails, online chats and the brows\u00ading his\u00adto\u00adries of mil\u00adlions of individuals.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Its source: James Snow\u00adden, who help\u00adful\u00adly pro\u00advid\u00aded Pow\u00ader\u00adPoint pre\u00adsen\u00adta\u00adtions pre\u00adpared by the agency describ\u00ading the pro\u00adgram. \u201cXKeyscore pro\u00advides the tech\u00adno\u00adlog\u00adi\u00adcal capa\u00adbil\u00adi\u00adty, if not the legal author\u00adi\u00adty, to tar\u00adget even <span class=\"caps\">US<\/span> per\u00adsons for exten\u00adsive elec\u00adtron\u00adic sur\u00adveil\u00adlance with\u00adout a war\u00adrant pro\u00advid\u00aded that some iden\u00adti\u00adfy\u00ading infor\u00adma\u00adtion, such as their email or <span class=\"caps\">IP<\/span> address, is known to the ana\u00adlyst,\u201d the Guardian reported.<\/p>\n<p>Tech\u00adnol\u00ado\u00adgy enables mas\u00adsive gov\u00adern\u00adment intru\u00adsion into our lives. Agency pol\u00adi\u00adcy pro\u00adhibits&nbsp;abuse but can\u2019t pre\u00advent it, any more than agency reg\u00adu\u00adla\u00adtions can pre\u00advent gov\u00adern\u00adment&nbsp;waste.<\/p>\n<p>Gov\u00adern\u00adment for\u00adev\u00ader asserts its com\u00adpe\u00adtence. It asks us to believe that our mon\u00adey is pru\u00addent\u00adly spent, that its revamp of the health care sys\u00adtem will make us health\u00adi\u00ader and more secure, that its social wel\u00adfare pro\u00adgrams are well-designed and fis\u00adcal\u00adly sound, that it can col\u00adlect our phone data, emails, social media inter\u00adac\u00adtions and oth\u00ader per\u00adson\u00adal infor\u00adma\u00adtion with\u00adout com\u00adpro\u00admis\u00ading our pri\u00adva\u00adcy or cur\u00adtail\u00ading our lib\u00ader\u00adties. We are to believe that its innu\u00admer\u00adable reg\u00adu\u00adla\u00adtions&nbsp;guar\u00adan\u00adtee that its good inten\u00adtions pro\u00adduce only good results.<\/p>\n<p>Government\u2019s track record hard\u00adly inspires con\u00adfi\u00addence. Trust in its com\u00adpe\u00adtence is almost always mis\u00adplaced, espe\u00adcial\u00adly when it strays beyond its con\u00adsti\u00adtu\u00adtion\u00adal bounds.<\/p>\n<p>The Pres\u00adi\u00addent should bear this in mind as he seeks to \u201c<a title=\"Link to POTUS presser transcript\" href=\"http:\/\/www.whitehouse.gov\/the-press-office\/2013\/08\/09\/remarks-president-press-conference\" target=\"_blank\">make the Amer\u00adi\u00adcan peo\u00adple more com\u00adfort\u00adable<\/a>\u201d with gov\u00adern\u00adment sur\u00adveil\u00adlance programs.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p><span class=\"dquo\">\u201c<\/span>Improp\u00ader pay\u00adments\u201d by the fed\u00ader\u00adal gov\u00adern\u00adment totaled an esti\u00admat\u00aded $115.3 bil\u00adlion in 2011, accord\u00ading to a report pre\u00adpared by the Office of Man\u00adage\u00adment and Bud\u00adget (<span class=\"caps\">OMB<\/span>), but the government\u2019s own watch\u00addog agency doesn\u2019t believe those esti\u00admates.&nbsp; The Gov\u00adern\u00adment Account\u00adabil\u00adi\u00adty Office \u2026 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/government-surveillance-insulting-our-intelligence\/\">Con\u00adtin\u00adue read\u00ading <span class=\"meta-nav\">\u2192<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":1170,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","wp_typography_post_enhancements_disabled":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"nfd_image_url":"","nfd_onboarding_generated":"","footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[343,158,268,157],"tags":[1194,474,475,325,275,269,44,467,466,473,470,472,471,170,477,1191,468,1190,476,469,322,478],"class_list":["post-1159","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-government-power","category-national-security","category-nsa","category-terrorism","tag-congress","tag-director-of-national-intelligence","tag-dni","tag-fisa","tag-fisc","tag-fourth-amendment","tag-gao","tag-government-spending","tag-government-waste","tag-james-clapper","tag-james-cole","tag-james-snowden","tag-john-inglis","tag-justice-department","tag-michael-corleone","tag-nsa","tag-omb","tag-president-obama","tag-ron-wyden","tag-senate-judiciary-committee","tag-surveillance","tag-xkeyscore"],"aioseo_notices":[],"aioseo_head":"\n\t\t<!-- All in One SEO 5.0.4 - aioseo.com -->\n\t<meta name=\"description\" content=\"\u201cImproper payments\u201d by the federal government totaled an estimated $115.3 billion in 2011, according to a report prepared by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), but the government\u2019s own watchdog agency doesn\u2019t believe those estimates. The Government Accountability Office (GAO), which examined the OMB analysis, thinks the number of misspent federal dollars is much\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"max-image-preview:large\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Doug Badger\"\/>\n\t<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dougsbriefcase.com\/blog\/government-surveillance-insulting-our-intelligence\/\" \/>\n\t\t<meta name=\"generator\" content=\"All in One SEO (AIOSEO) 5.0.4\" \/>\n\t\t<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n\t\t<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Doug&#039;s Brief Case - A brief case for my way of thinking.\" \/>\n\t\t<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n\t\t<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"NSA Surveillance: Insulting Our Intelligence? - Doug&#039;s Brief Case\" \/>\n\t\t<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"\u201cImproper payments\u201d by the federal government totaled an estimated $115.3 billion in 2011, according to a report prepared by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), but the government\u2019s own watchdog agency doesn\u2019t believe those estimates. 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